Save on Solar is a group of local residents that are working together to install solar panels. By creating a buying group we can reduce the cost of the panels by at least 10%. This makes solar power even better value for money.
The installers have offered a discount on each installation if a group of residents who live near each other all have their panels installed at roughly the same time. The installations do not all have to be the same, different houses need different sizes and solutions.
The Government is currently offering a guaranteed price for all the electricity generated by the solar panels. This feed-in-tariff is quite generous at the moment but is likely to be reduced towards the end of next year. It makes sense therefore to plan for installation of solar panels over the next 6-9 months to take advantage of this rate.
The feed-in tariff is designed to give you a payback on any investment of around 7%. So, to put it simply, if you are lucky enough to be able to gain access to funds for the panels, typically £7-10,000 you will get a return on that investment of 7%. Many mortgage companies are happy to up the loan on a house to cover the cost of the panels. Given the current mortgage rates it is likely that the payback will be somewhat higher than the cost of borrowing the money.
With the community buying arrangement then the cost of the initial investment will be that much lower providing an even greater return on that investment.
The other big plus is that it will reduce your carbon footprint, something that is crucial to moving towards a more sustainable economic and environmentally friendly future.
If you want to register an interest in possibly taking advantage of this then just click on the "join" button on the right. It doesn't comit you to anything, just expressing an initial interest in installing solar panels at some stage in 2011.
Save On Solar Photo Gallery
Save on Solar presentation and notes
Last night's meeting was well attended and we have enough interested households to go forwards with a tender. Big thanks to Martin for all his research and leadership.
Martin will be leading a committee including a few of last night's attendees to get formal tenders from several solar providers over the next month.
If you are interested in being part of the buying group, please join this group.
There is a PDF of the presentation here: http://www.hernehillcan.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/110205_solar_pres...
Save on Solar Meeting - May 5th
Come to the next Save on Solar meeting to get answers:
- Is your property is suitable for solar PV?
- How much will I need to spend?
- What’s the return on investment?
We’ve done a bunch of research - we’ve been in touch with five solar companies to get cost information, we’ve been looking into the feed-in tariff and the return on investment, and we’ve got more information on what makes a suitable property.
Background the the Save On Solar Group
Feed in Tariff (FIT)
The FIT
(also called the Clean Energy Cash Back) will pay a premium for energy
generated by renewable energy systems like solar panels. It is designed to generate
power locally and to build a low carbon economy. FIT was first introduced in
Denmark and Germany and has been adopted by more than 50 countries worldwide.
Here in the UK FIT started on the 1st of April 2010.
Depending on the size of the installation you will be paid up to 41.3 p for every kWh your solar system generates. For a well sited 4kW retrofitted system the estimated annual output would be 3300kWh and you would be paid 41.3p for every kWh – approximately £1350 a year. Generating you own power also means your bills will drop as you will be buying less power from the national grid. On top of all this anything you export back to the national grid will earn you an additional 3p.
The payments are guaranteed at the sign-up rate for 25 years
Can our Economies be solar powered?
Each year the sun delivers 15,000 times more energy than is needed and consumed by the population of our planet. Solar energy is stored in the sea, in lakes and streams, in the land surface and in all plants. It is there to be released over time. The sun has a direct impact on sea tides and winds. Can our economies be solar powered?
Many solar technologies are already in use and their demand is growing: photovoltaics, solar water heating, wind farms, hydro power, wave power, tidal power, biogas, ground and air heat pumps, biomass heating systems and hydrogen. All these technologies rely on the sun feeding energy into our planet every day. New and much more efficient solar technologies are being developed and brought to market.
Comments
Good idea. Just to clarify, is the group looking at Solar Electric or Solar Thermal or both solutions?
Re: Solar electric versus Solar Thermal.
At this stage I don't think we have ruled out either. In fact it would be good to be able to go with a flexible approach to the installers. For some people who have a specific building structure then it may rule out one or the other. However, as long as they are solar driven then the installers will be happy.
What's the timescale? Weeks? Months?
What's the next event? A meeting to discuss options and typical costs?
Is there information avialable that will allow one to do some preliminary sizing and estimating?
If we are dependent on reaching a minimum head count could we have a counter on the site showing progress?
Mike
Mike
We think that the timetable will be a few months. We have had preliminary meetings with some solar panel installers. We have no commitment to go with them and are keen to include a wide range of installers to evaluate all the options before choosing the main one.
We will be holding another meeting(s) where all the issues will be covered, benefits, logistics, costings etc. Everyone's costs will be different as there will be no two installs identical. Each home owner will cut their own deal with the supplier but benefit from coordinating with everyone else to survey and install at roughly the same time.
We will be posting as much info as we can up on this group pages. We are waiting for more background material. Watch this space.
Re: headcount. At the moment we are going on the number of people who join this group so the headcount is on the right hand side under recent members. We could do a simple total as well, will look in to this.
Thanks for coming on board.
Interesting idea, but does anybody know whether the Dulwich Estate would ever give consent for solar panels?
Regards
David
Interesting idea, but does anybody know whether the Dulwich Estate would ever give consent for solar panels?
Regards
David
FT article about the economies of solar power:
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/b222679c-29a3-11e0-bb9b-00144feab49a.html#axzz1CQ5qJmcI
Please see the following article http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2011/mar/22/greg-barker-feed-in-tariff?intcmp=239
It is entitled "An open letter to Greg Barker, butcher of the feed-in tariff"
I currently work in Germany solar is everywhere if u are serious about solar call a german firm
better value better kit more experience most British firms overquote how much u will get from the FiT monies
to enhance their selling position - plse ensure u do the maths on cost vs benefits predicted and realised
There is a further new initiative Called "Renewable Heat " in the UK which also has govt funding of sorts ´based
around Ground Heat pumps and biomass boilers (all v new and v expensive too!)
The Electricitz Feed in Tariffs (FiTs) have been cut in all sectors both big and small and micro (thats you) sectors
Be very sure that your outgoings can be recouped ideally before
your descendants recycle you @ Inheritance tax time
Good Luck
This is a fantastic initiative but there is just one major snag. The Dulwich Estate do NOT permit solar panels that face onto the street or onto playing fields or parks. I applied some years ago when there were other grants available and was turned down.
Gill
Re. Gill's comment - this was my thought too. The Scheme of Management says this:
Applications for the installation of solar energy panels should comply with the following:
· Solar panels must not be visible from the road or other public spaces, such as parks, public gardens or sports grounds;
· Solar panels on the front roof of a property are highly unlikely to be approved;
· The location of solar panels on a roof at the rear of a property should be inconspicuous — the size of the panel should not dominate the roof or spoil the architectural character of the building;
· Suitable alternative locations for solar panels may include at low level in rear gardens, behind parapets on flat roofs or on a garden building;
· Obtain planning consent from the local authority: generally, solar panels in excess of 3 metres square may require planning consent. The Conservation Office at Southwark Council has indicated: all development should preserve or enhance the historic character and appearance of buildings or areas of historical or architectural significance. Planning proposals that will have a material adverse effect on the historic environment will not be acceptable.
This information does not seem to have been updated since 2006.
The Save on Solar group must have considered this, what's their view?
Has anyone tried the "low level" suitable alternative location?
IMC
It may make things less confusing to consider the following points (and do correct me if I'm wrong in any of this):
1) Planning rules for non-conservation areas were relaxed since that last Dulwich Estate paragraph was written so that any solar installation not protruding more than 20cms above the surface of the roof is deemed to not require planning permission. Any solar PV system should therefore be compliant unless it were mounted on stilts! It may be that the Dulwich Estate is over-interpreting the planning rules. If a building is not a listed building, the rules relating to being viewable from the highway relate only to wall mounted not roof mounted solar panels. Attitudes have changed over the last few years. Perhaps a dialogue with the Dulwich Estate could bear fruit. Unlike a nuclear power station, a solar panel is easily removable should the country have developed alternative large scale renewable electricity such as undersea tidal. For full planning rules see the Planning Portal on the government's website.
2) Shading across solar modules will reduce their output putting their economic viability in question. Therefore suggesting that people put solar PV panels in their gardens is likely to be problematical in an inner city area like Herne Hill. An MCS registered solar PV installer will be able to measure the angle and height of any objects to the south of the proposed panels' site and assess whether they would cause problems.
3) Given the fixed installation costs, such as wiring, scaffolding and inverter, a larger system will be more cost effective than a small one, though systems over 4kW receive an accordingly slightly lower Feed-in Tariff (FiT), and systems over 3.68kW have a stricter and therefore more expensive regulatory regime, so unless you've got a large enough roof for well over that, say 5kW and above, a practical maximum for a domestic householder is likely to be 3.68kW.
4) The FiT, which may seem generous at 41.3p/unit for systems up to 4kW, is effectively payment to overcome the hassle factor of arranging and installing the system. The payment will increase with inflation for the 25 years and is payable even if you use all the electricity yourself. The FiT starting rates were set up to 31/3/2013, with the final 12 months being slightly less than the current rates, and the deadline was 31/3/2013 - indeed Ofgem is still publishing rates to that date in its Introducing the Feed-in Tariff scheme on its website and shows the tariff from 1/4/11 as remaining at 41.3p/unit but in another document called Feed-in Tariffs Adjusted Tariff rates 1/4/2011 it gives the rate for new installations from 1/4/11 - 31/3/12 as 43.3p/unit and 3.1p/unit for surplus electricity which may be a publishing error by some junior web clerk that no one has spotted yet as I thought later starters would get lower rather than higher commencing tariffs in a process called degression. Under the Department of Energy and Climate Change Review starting rates are now only guaranteed until 31/3/2012. It was always envisaged that the starting rates for new installations would drop year by year as installation costs fell. The FiT can only be applied for after the system has been installed and commissioned.
5) The government wishes to cut the FiT for PV systems over 50kW from 1st August, which would make less viable any community group ideas to install systems on schools, swimming pools etc to help in their running costs. While concern over greenfield sites being carpeted with solar panels might have been justified, this would be throwing the baby out with the bath water. Of course domestic systems wouldn't be affected by such a change. The consultation period on the proposed changes has now ended.
6) If you have a suitable roof for solar PV and have spare roof area, consider also installing a solar thermal system, particularly if you're already thinking of upgrading your heating and hot water system. Or even consider reducing your solar PV to make room for some solar thermal later. For instance, if you're already thinking of installing an unvented hot water cylinder, choosing one with a twin coil (a 'solar cylinder') rather than a single coil won't greatly increase the cost. The government has promised support for solar thermal as part of the Renewable Heat Incentive (RHI) and has set the tariff rate for commercial solar thermal schemes at 8.5p/kWh for 20 years, but so far I have not discovered if this is to be index linked like the PV FiTs. Details of financial support for domestic installations, due to commence in 2012, should be announced shortly, but installations commissioned before then should be eligible as long as they weren't commissioned before 15th July 2009, and they meet the full requirements of the scheme (e.g. with suitable heat meters). A small premium payment to contribute to capital cost is already payable. Prior to the FiT solar thermal was considered to be cost effective if well installed at a reasonable price, although with a very much longer payback period than either loft insulation or draughtproofing. A typical domestic solar thermal system might require only two or three square metres of tubes or panel, and isn't as sensitive to a small shadow such as a telegraph pole as solar PV. One lot of scaffolding could deal with two installations. With commercial RHI tariffs now set isn't it about time Brockwell Lido installed some solar thermal heating to enable those of us who are not into breaking the ice before jumping in to enjoy the pool for more than just the odd fortnight at the height of summer? There are robust systems incorporating black plastic piping laid on flat roofs that could be very suitable, and inconspicuous.
7) Beware of 'free solar panel' schemes. While not a scam, these mainly benefit the installation companies who will receive the FiT, with only a small financial benefit to the home owner.
Declaration of interest: I've been interested in alternative energy for some time and want to see if I can have solar PV fitted onto a house in Yorkshire (whose roof area may be too small) and I also have a son-in-law who recently started to work for the main agent for a solar PV manufacturer in China that sells MCS approved solar modules, but to companies, not homeowners. We can't personally have solar panels fitted in Arlingford Road as our ground floor flat is in a house with a roof that faces almost due east and west, like the rest of the street, so I'm not a prospective participant, but am interested as an observer.
I've slightly edited my original post in the light of further reading and research. May I recommend an excellent and up-to-date book aimed at prospective purchasers of solar PV systems entitled Choosing Solar Electricity by Brian Goss, published by the Centre for Alternative Technology, which is a fascinating place to visit near Aberystwyth in west Wales if ever you're over that way. They're a charity and do some great educational work, so do buy the book direct from their own bookshop.
Tax free. See:
http://www.bettergeneration.com/green-energy-factsheets/feed-in-tariffs.html
Good morning Herne Hill,
It's great to see everybody intrested in Solar PV.
We are MCS accredited Solar PV installers in your local area!! D & J Roofing has been established since 1986 (Our 25th anniversary this year).
We have been installing Solar PV for the past 2-3 years, at first we was sub contracting for commercial companies just doing there roofing installs. 8 months ago we decided to get accredited ourselves, since then we have done a lot of installs in the Blackheath/Dulwich area.
What we try and get across to our potential customers is to use fully trained roofers on your roof and fully trained electricians on your electrics. As your system needs to function for 25 years, it is crucial your installation is in a SAFE working order.
At the moment we are re designing our high street shop to promote SOLAR PV and ROOFING. Why not come and visit us @ 338 Lordship Lane, SE22 8LZ or try or web address www.djroofing.co.uk/solar .
Hi Whatsup
A few months you said.
That was 4 months ago.
In the meantime nothing seems to have happened apart from an informative post by Peter Lennard and clarification of the position wrt the Dulwich Estate.
I recall some talk about a planned meeting in a pub round about now but can find no mention of it on the Forum.
Has the whole initiative sunk without trace?
Will anything happen in my lifetime?
Mike
Mike
No, the project has not sunk without trace. Meeting will be announced in a day or so.
Thanks
Save on Solar Meeting
May 5th, 7:30pm, upstairs at the Prince Regent
Come to the next Save on Solar meeting to get answers:
We’ve done a bunch of research - we’ve been in touch with five solar companies to get cost information, we’ve been looking into the feed-in tariff and the return on investment, and we’ve got more information on what makes a suitable property.
Following the meeting we will initiate a tender process, asking each of the five companies to make a proposal based on the number and suitability of the Save on Solar group’s houses. The process will be transparent and supplier-independent.
Meeting outline:
1. Intro to Save on Solar project
2. Solar technology – a brief overview of the current market, products and standards
3. My building – is my property suitable for solar PV? How much space do I need? What is needed for the actual installation?
4. Money and investment – Examples of different installations and the investment they needed. What is the payback under the Feed-in-Tariff.
5. Questions and answers
Thereses
Unsurpisingly I am delighted that my stirring the pot has caused this meeting to crystalise at last, but totally frustrated that with such short notice I cannot make it - I already have tickets for another event that night which were bought months ago.
Would you please be so kind as to email copies of any handouts and/or slides.
I apologise for the short notice, we've been away for the easter hols.
Notes etc will be posted to the website.
Thereses:
Being in your local area, can we have the opportunity to quote for this project.
Could we attend your meeting as an MCS regestired company.
Best Regards
David French
Please visit our website www.djroofing.co.uk/solar
Hi everyone
As i have not had a reply to my request to attend your meeting tonight i assume we are not invited.
Have a good meeting.
Best regards
David French
D&J Roofing & Solar
The meeting tonight is for homeowners to get more info; no installers will be present. I will pass your info on to the organiser so when we tender you have an opportunity.
This is a great idea, when is the next meeting; I would love to come.
I'm a Clapham resident but very interested in joining the group and taking part. Is it too late?